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 Bob Thieme

December 3, 2003

 Dear Pastors of the Doctrinal Church Movement,

 A year ago at this time I was still attending one of your churches in Pennsylvania and left at the end of December after doing some research.  In the two months prior to leaving we both ( my wife and I ) had some serious questions about the vocabulary and teachings  presented - which were new to us. After much prayer and investigation into the  teachings we found the close connection they have to R.B. Thieme. We knew the pastor was big on Thieme, but we didn't know that it was so pervasive in all the teaching.

 Previously, our small knowledge of  Bob Thieme only went back to the late 1960's and early seventies when he was considered by some good men to be a sound teacher with special gifts of teaching for the church. Many great servants of the Lord, though not in full agreement today with Thieme have benefited from Thieme's ministry in the past. When my pastor at that time discovered Col. Thieme and was greatly impressed by him, I was already drinking from a different well, with teachers from Dallas and Talbot and Trinity in Deerfield. I never got into Thieme teaching which was developing to be questionable in the middle 1970's, because it didn't impress me with the need of the hour which was to fight the good fight and not to live the Christian life as if we were just posing for a picture.  As we investigated Thieme for the first time in depth - over a number of weeks last year, We found that he had absolutely no support any more at Dallas or Moody going back to the mid- 1970's and that today he is considered an embarrassment for DTS. Dallas printed a book examining his teaching which was back then in 1978 a mild rebuke. His teachings have gone beyond Scripture and for this reason he is considered alarming and harmful to the cause of Christ by Christian leaders all over America. We have decided to leave the Doctrinal Church even though it was very hard for us, for these and also the following reasons - among others not mentioned here which are  related to Thieme type teaching at the Doctrinal Church in PA and in all the adherent churches of the Thieme movement.

A. His doctrine on fallen Angels called " Operation Footstool " alone would cause a church  to cease being strongly  evangelistic and strong on missions. The interpretation is highly speculative. Operation Footstool, states that the end will come when a certain quota is filled in relation to fallen angels who are being replaced by us and that we are merely replacements. In fact the Bible teaches that our position in Heaven will be much higher than the position of Angels.

B. The teaching on conception of life is also alarming and not accepted by any other evangelical School known to us except among Thieme's followers and " Christian swinger groups " who quote Thieme to promote their sinful lifestyle on the Internet - yes it's there.

C. Mankind's significance and God's love for mankind ( i.e. the Gospel of John 3: 16 ) is reduced greatly by Thieme's teaching on the Angelic Conflict.

D. Not singing songs about the Blood of Christ flies in the face of Rev. 5: 9 ;

E. And a host of other teachings about love, sex, life, marriage, prosperity, government, worship and military are strictly his own personal ideas and should not be taught as sound doctrine.

F. Your Churches for the most part teach two ordinances and Thieme one, in some cases you' re listed in both camps ? Is this being honest and true to your church statement of faith?

G. Thieme style is authoritarian, all power and relationships go through him.

H. If Thieme's  Greek or Hebrew were so great , he should have translated the Bible or led a team to do so long ago. Friends, the message is already there in the Bible - translated for us by scores of professors who teach Greek and Hebrew for a living. The messenger needs to stick to the Word and not emphasis that which is not emphasized in Scripture and in Thieme's case , is not even taught in Scripture. If language ability gave you illumination then the Pharisees should have been our teachers, as they  knew the original languages better than anyone. We don't deny that experts are needed in areas of controversy. One good example is a book like, " Jesus - A Biblical Defense of His Deity " by McDowell & Larsen, where a scholarly approach is needed. There is a proper way to use language training without lording over people and making them dependent - spoon feeding them for a lifetime. With the tools available today, you should be preparing new leadership every five or six years if not sooner.

I. I've been a part of two Thieme churches and I heard this in both. " We're the only ones around here doing the job of Bible teaching the right way. " Jesus is still the best example of teaching and mentoring, I am sure you'll agree. He didn't confuse people with a new vocabulary. He trained even the roughest of men to take over in just a few years.

 Your congregations ( people ) are super and we will always be thankful for the love shown to us by them. You are great Pastors in your own right, you only need the Word and the study tools/training you already possess which open up His word when you are illumined by the Holy Spirit. You don't need to parrot anyone. We are all laborers in His fields which are still white unto harvest and we will continue to pray for all of you. I would suggest you join in with others to learn and to help them - like Rick Warren's conferences, Global Pastors Network ( which I will be part of next month ) or even the Willow Creek Association. Form an association of evangelical churches in your communities and love each other.

Please let me tell you the story of my first Pastor. Richard E. Wager was the most accomplished Pastor in the Chicago area by the time he was forty years old ( His main work preceded the renaissance of the Moody Church led by Sweeting, Wiersbe and Lutzer ). He was one of the three founders of Awana International. He gave Awana its current name, wrote all the handbooks, started Awana Scholarship camps, started the Awana Olympics and was the first paid employee of Awana. R.E, Wager

Love,  Joe  Losiak is the web site for Thieme churches and supporters and where you can see their adherence to the Thieme way. Some of the names may not belong there and were simply placed there by someone else. One such name is J. Ed. Komoszewski, Th.M. who has tried for three years to get his name off the web site. Professor Komoszewski wrote us to inform us of his futile efforts to get off the list.   Pastor Wager remains on as one of the nine key mentors in my life who are now with the Lord. The other eight are Bill Vesely also of the Lawndale Emmanuel Baptist Church, Bud Hinkson, Harry Dickleman and Bill Bright of Campus Crusade for Christ, my father Marian J. Losiak,  Polish Baptist  Pastor Krzysztof Bednarczyk, Professor Harold O. J. Brown and a Roman Catholic priest who has been called the Martin Luther of Poland - Prof. Franciszek Blachnicki. I support the AWANA INTERNATIONAL 100% and our whole family was involved in AWANA at the church we attended in Erie, PA . We helped start AWANA in Poland in the years 1999/ 2000).

    At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."           Matthew 11:25 (NIV)

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